>> moderator: would you disagree with governor romney? allen: our responsibility as leaders, as public servants is to make sure this is a cup where -- this is a country where everyone has the opportunity to compete, succeed and pursue their dreams. and so the way i look at it, and i'll expand on it later, i suppose, you look at the records. who has created more opportunities? i mentioned welfare reform. those were folks who were down and out and temporarily needed help, and we want to help folks who are able-minded, able-bodied, even folks who are disabled want to work. i think that's one of the great characteristics of all americans, and they don't look at themselves as victims. they want a government that reflects their values and gives them the opportunity to reach their aspirations and be that role model for their -- >> moderator: all right, governor kaine, take a moment for rebuttal. kaine: i don't think the question of whether governor romney's statements you agree with them or disagree with them is hard. it's very straightforward.